Hey Holly, I read your comments over on my blog. Thanks for those.

This is an interesting post. As I read it, I found myself wondering something I wonder about a lot ... don't you think that some people NEED to just be told what to do because they're not capable of living the so-called "examined life"? Don't you think they need that kind of simplicity? And I don't mean that in a Romantic sense, I mean it in a most-people-are-daft kind of way.

I'm sure this idea would be classified on the FARRRRRR right of the political spectrum, but still ... this idea pops up in my brain and awful lot when I look around at the world. I guess I'm not very optomistic.

Anyway, please don't call me a fascist. Ta ta!!!

I not only think most people are mentally incapable of living an examined life, I also think that a lot of the ones who ARE capable are too fucking cowardly to do it.

Stupidity is one thing--it's annoying, and you have to feel sorry for dumb people, because they're brains just don't work as well. But cowardice--I despise cowardice as I despise few things. A lot of things are really scary and hard. You just do them anyway, because they need to be done.

And I don't think it makes us fascists to realize that. Bitches, maybe, but not fascists.

Good think I'm not afraid to be a bitch. :-)

But this is the most delicious red apple in the whole wide world, Snow White...

I agree with you, Holly. I think most are "mentally capable" of an examined life, but I do believe some are caught like rats in a wheel - so busy circiling inside the cage that convention has set out for them, they exhaust themselves; blur their vision; and don't know how to stop the wheel from spinning.

Holly, I don't get it...if it's so pernicious, why not just separate yourself completely from the Church? Why have this official affiliation with an institution that stands opposed to so many of your core values? Who cares what your Mom thinks or feels?

But that's what many of the women I know (like Jana) who call themselves Mormon feminists are going through. Some have intimate, personal relationships with the Heavenly Father of Mormonism. Some, like Jana, value the rich historical and cultural heritage of their Mormon families. Some are married to husbands who care deeply about them and about the Church, or started families with the assumption that they will raise their children in the Church.

I've been tempted to make a clean break with Mormonism again and again, and I've wondered if it's my cowardice that holds me back. I'm also not much of a fighter. I want to understand, build bridges.

At any rate, I don't understand why everything has to be so black and white. You know how complicated relationships with people and with religion can be. People live with a lot of dissonance in their lives--arranging one's ideals, beliefs, loyalties and relationships to get rid of that dissonance can be a monumental task. When I see people who are inching down that path, my take is that they need compassion and guiding hand. It's what you've extended to me, again and again.

John:

I've LEFT the garden. I'm not in it, or anywhere near it. I have no relationship to the institutional church, aside from a nominal affiliation. I don't give a shit about the institutional church--I don't give one single clump of feces about that organization with its headquarters in Utah.

But am I supposed to pretend I was never a part of it, that I never lived in it? What good would it do me to deny that I spent 26 years eating that crappy fruit myself, and that my parents ate it all their lives before me?

In order to cure some diseases, you have to evaluate your lifestyle and figure out what it is you do that makes you sick. Sometimes it's obvious: if you smoke and you've got breathing problems, well, you need to quit smoking. But I went through a period where I suffered from severe food sensitivities, and for that I had to go on a very restricted diet, then reintroduce items slowly, gauging my reaction to everything from citrus to olives to eggs, so I could figure out what made me sick and what didn't.

I've learned this: it's not my Mormon past that makes me sick. It's not my Mormon heritage. It's Mormon doctrine that makes me ill, and it truly does sicken and disgust me.

There was a key word in my original post: DEVOUT. I didn't say, "No woman will ever truly espouse the cause of feminism [or justice, or freedom of mind] while she's still a cultural Mormon." No. I specified that there is a level of devotion to the doctrines of Mormonism that makes these things, in my opinion, impossible.

Frankly, I don't care what my mom or you or anyone else thinks of my relationship to my Mormon heritage. I really don't give a shit, which is why I still keep going to Sunstone and talking about the issues that matter to me, even when other people tell me I have no right to do it, or turn away in boredom, or whatever. I don't have my name removed from the record of the church mostly because it doesn't cost me much. OK, yeah, I have to deal with a couple of phone calls a year from some asshole at church. But I just say, "Never, ever, ever call me again" and hang up. The effects on me are minimal.

Other than that, I have no relationship to the institutional church at all. That's part of what I've realized lately. I read that masthead of the Mo-fem blog about how "Our common bond is our connection to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and our commitment to women." My connection to the official COJCOLDS is so non-existent that those words hardly even make sense to me.

My mistake was thinking that the commitment to women of most--not even all, but most--of the people in such a group would be equal to or even greater than their commitment to the church. I made this mistake partly because my commitment to women was always greater than my commitment to the church, and because I think our commitment to people should always be stronger than our commitment to institutions.

But it turns out that for many--maybe not all, but many--of the people there, their greatest commitment is to the institution. I don't understand that commitment any more; I don't respect it; I can't really participate meaningful in conversations about such a commitment.

Do these people deserve compassion? Absolutely. But it seems to me that the most compassionate thing I can do is to leave them the hell alone. My presence makes them uncomfortable; I want to talk about things they're not ready to confront. They get pissy and cranky and don't like me because I've been willing to be Cassandra. And is there ever anyone more unpopular than Cassandra?

Frankly, I'm starting to tire of the role, which I cultivated carefully because my patriarchal blessing told me it was the role I was born to play. Giving that up also seems the most compassionate thing to do for myself. My intellectual resources and my time are, unfortunately, limited. I earn my living as a teacher, and when it comes time to do something outside of the classroom, I want activities where *I* learn and am challenged by ideas that exceed my intellectual grasp, not where I'm spelling things out for people who are too cautious to do anything but "inch" toward enlightenment.

Let me spell it out: I'm aiming high. In some ways that stuff about "wanting to read God's mind" was a joke because I no longer believe in an anthropomorphic god but in some ways I was in deadly earnest because I do want to understand the secrets of the universe. I'm not content to participate in conversations about how to adhere more closely to gospel ideals of righteous womanhood. I want to talk about how we shed ignorance and indoctrination and become ENLIGHTENED, AWAKE, like the greatest spiritual leaders ever to bless the world.

I have always been able to talk to you about the things that matter to me because you take them seriously, and because you are not a believing Mormon, and because you do not support the patriarchy. And I would LOVE to find a group of Mormon feminists who think the patriarchy is bunk and are ready to do something about it. If I ever do, I'll be pretty damn happy. But I think I have finally reached the point–after doing this god only knows how many times–where I just want to RENOUNCE ENTIRELY these pointless conversations with Mormons who can see, quite plainly, that SEXISM IS WRONG, but are not yet ready to acknowledge the sexism inherent not only in Mormon practice, but in Mormon doctrine.

Not everything has to be black and white. But when something is black and another thing is white, I get tired of listening to people go on and on about yellow, because that's all they'll let themselves see. Whatever. Such people can do what they want. But as for me, I'm on a search to find people who not only see clearly, but are willing to talk honestly about what they see. So I'll go off on that quest, and if anyone from the yellow contingent ever wants a little more color in her life, well, I'll leave a forwarding address and hope she sends me a postcard telling me what colors she saw when she finally opened her eyes.

I agree: I think a lot of mainstream, church-going Mormon folk are asleep. I'm curious: what does "devout Mormon" mean to you? What's the distinction that makes a devout Mormon different from a cultural Mormon, lapsed Mormon or an indifferent former Mormon? I'd like to understand.

I sometimes feel lumped in with the devout bunch because I like my ward and still attend church, but it's a label I would never apply to myself. I've pulled way back from the "devotion" of my youth or as a BYU student; when I participte, it's on my terms.

I'd like to think I can venture into the garden and pull weeds from around the tainted fruit trees occasionally without that equating to support for the patriarchy. But I could be wrong.

A devout Mormon is someone who really, truly believes in the ideas set forth in the Proclamation on the Family.

A devout Mormon is someone who believes some shriveled old git in Salt Lake City is god's chosen spokesman on earth.

A devout Mormon is someone who believes that heaven is a fancy clubhouse designed primarily by and for men. A devout Mormon believes this clubhouse has bouncers in the form of angels, who won't let any man into the club unless he properly performs all the secret handshakes and recites all the secret passwords, demonstrating that he has been properly initiated. A devout Mormon is someone who manages not to gag when she hears the doctrine that no woman can enter the club unless she is accompanied by a worthy man.

A devout Mormon is someone who believes that people who don't go to the temple and learn the handshakes and passwords, don't deserve to be let into heaven.

A devout Mormon is someone who believes, really and truly, that there is nothing intelletually deficient and morally grotesque in the statement, "The Mormon church is the only true and living Church on the face of the earth."

A devout Mormon is someone who feels proud when she says such a thing in public.

I could go on and on, but I hope I've made my point. It's pretty much about the extent to which someone believes and endorses the doctrines of the church, and thinks others should believe and endorse them too.

As long as you do that, you'll be a tool of the patriarchy.

it also occurs to me that if you hope there are ways in which you don't support the patriarchy, the hope is self-fulfilling--in a good way. If you hope you undermine the power structure, you do undermine the power structure--perhaps in the minutest of ways, but it beats nothing.

Unless, of course, we are talking about one of those women who wants to be a feminist but is always canting on about the need to support the priesthood and to follow the guidance of the brethren even in things we don't understand--particulaly if they have to do with gender (like whether or not we should pray to/ discuss heavenly mother). In that case, she is still patriarchy's bitch.

It made me queasy just to read through the descriptions and glad to discover I am not devout--or patriarchy's bitch--according to these calculations.

There's always more one can do to undermine the power structure.

For now, I will continue to pull weeds in the garden, smile sweetly at the ward clerk when he hands me my blank tithing settlement form, show up for the things that are of value to me (one RS teacher's lessons, choir practice) avoid the things that would poison me (Stake & General Conference, the Ensign, any meeting devoted to The Proclamation, etc.), protest when the church tries to have a say in how I vote and keep company with my sisters and brothers on the fringes.

And hope that my efforts and intentions to undermine the power structure destabilize the bit I have access to.

Sounds pretty respectable and admirable to me.

I am sure there are more women in the church like you, and I am always happy when I find another. I just get really frustrated when I think I've found a bunch of Maryhellions and they turn out to be malkins, so I'm willing to let people introduce me to the destabilizing LDS feminists, instead of going out looking for them myself.

As I read through some of these comments, I can only hang my head at the idiocracy and lack of knowledge, also the refusal to obtain it, of some people. I know that this is falling on deaf ears, but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, although not lived right by most, when lived correctly, will take you farther in knowledge, in understanding, and in any aspect of life and religion, than any other thing or collection of things in the world. I read through many things that are absolutely untrue. I read many things that might have a little truth in them, but have been dilluted and twisted to meat the needs of one whose lack of knowledge compells them to diss on The Church. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and although many who assist do so because they were lead to believe it, I assist, and participate, of my own free will and choice because I chose to put it to the test. I chose to "leave the garden" in search of a better religion. The more I studied, and I did study, without bias, the more I realized that the LDS Church is the only one on earth with all of the truch. The LDS Church encourages one to question everything and find out for themselves what they think. I won't lie, I find myself very frustrated with concept generally found among mormons that to question the church is heresy. No, the doctrine of the church is to question. To study, and to find out on your own apart from what mommy and daddy told you, and apart from what the general body of your home ward or branch say or do.

Yo Distilled:

You said

but The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, although not lived right by most, when lived correctly, will take you farther in knowledge, in understanding, and in any aspect of life and religion, than any other thing or collection of things in the world.

No, it won't, even with your qualification about "living 'the church' correctly," because it's impossible to "live the church correctly," because the church is a fundamentally flawed, bigoted, misdirected institution. See my most recent post, the one entitled God Fought the Law, And the Law Won, for further evidence.

I chose to "leave the garden" in search of a better religion.

If you chose to leave in order to find a better "religion," then you might indeed end up back at the COJCOLDS. But if you left in search of greater truth, deeper and more genuine spirituality, superior harmony with truth and justice, then you would not end up back in the church.

The more I studied, and I did study, without bias, the more I realized that the LDS Church is the only one on earth with all of the truch.

The fact that you can assert that the COJCOLDS has "all of the truch" (sic) shows just how out of touch you are with reality--as well as the church's non-reality. Church doctrine doesn't even officially teach that it has ALL the truth, because there's more truth yet to be revealed--you know, shit we don't know, like all that mother in heaven stuff, including how often god has sex with his wives and what their names are; or how to get to Kolob, in the twinkling of an eye or otherwise.

Duh.

I can see why your name is "Distilled": the fruit in your garden isn't just rotten, but fermented, and you're thinking under the influence. Looks like you need to make another foray out of the garden, and find out what wacky hallucinogens you've been ingesting there.

p.s. You write,

I can only hang my head at the idiocracy and lack of knowledge, also the refusal to obtain it, of some people.

An "idiocracy" would be a government or management run by idiots, which is what the Bush administration and the Mormon church both provide. Whereas "idiocy," the word you wanted, involves behavior that includes endorsing an idiocracy, as you did.